John says:

If we open dialogue with them and ask them nicely, I’m sure they would have told us all that we wanted to know, stop sawing people’s heads off and abandon all plans to hijack airplanes that they can crash into buildings.

Jim says:

I think what is most disappointing about the entire ‘torture’ charade is that the performance we are seeing has *nothing* to do with the moral question that the down-to-earth American people are actually having.
Instead this is being paraded out for political gain, pure and simple. The above list of ten actions were documented, and then explained and in some cases even performed for members of the House and the Senate. This includes both John McCain and Susan Pelosi – two of the most strident screechers today. Also in that group was John Conyers, the ‘lynch the Bush Administration’ rabble rouser.
The discussion that needs to be had surrounds the following…
a) whether or not this is acceptable from a personal/social moral perspective; ie, what does your gut tell you as an American, and try and figure out how you would have felt about it 4 weeks post 9/11.
b) was there a law actually broken? This speaks less to how we ‘feel’ about it and more to whether or not you can hold anyone criminally liable for the action that was taken.
c) Context, context, context. Waterboarding is the current political environment’s ‘DDT’. Is waterboarding harsh? Maybe; ask any US Serviceman that has been through SERE (Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape) training – they all have to go through it. More importantly, it was understood that this was the coup de grace of techniques, and was used on only 3 persons. 1 – Khalid Sheik Muhammad – known mastermind of 9/11. 2. Abdul Rahim al-Nashiri – mastermind of the USS Cole attack and finally 3. Abu Zubaydah – not the monkey from Alladin, rather the right hand man for operations for Osama Bin Ladin.

The fact is that these three men laughed at the typical criminal questioning, then the use of these tactics, including waterboarding, got them to release information that stopped attacks in the UK, Los Angeles and another location that escapes me currently.

I get terribly disgusted when I see people making the statement ‘it brings us down to their level’. That’s a joke, seriously. These twisted people, not all of Islam, but these radical wackos that have twisted a rich and respectable culture to their demented needs, are murderous, heartless fiends. They decapitate people like something out of Lord of the Flies for simple transgressions, and some just for publicity. These are not soldiers, they are not covered by the Geneva convention. We do things to them that yes, cause fear and anxiety of death – but no other permanent ill effects. Ask Daniel Berg what it felt like to have your head removed in 5 seconds flat while you were still alive… then compare.

This charade is a political gang bang to garner support for the 2010 election, on both sides, and its despicable.

Phil says:

This is a tough problem, and i will no doubt come off as a jerk for what i wrote below, but if my conclusions seem ‘wrong’, I just want others to consider my thoughts – my conclusions are temporary and they will come to their own conclusions … temporary as all conclusions should be until a (subjectively) fair amount of (subjective) concensus is reached
~~~
It is easier to take a “zero-tolerance” attitude, but that attitude is the result of being too lazy or fearful to judge each aspect of reality in it’s relative good or bad, weighed agaisnt all other aspects, over time and across cultures.

It is much easier feel good about ourselves in being able to hold the moral high ground if we can simply and without reservation say,”We do not torture.” As if FEELING GOOD ABOUT OURSELVES should be a major factor when holding the moral high ground has done us so little apparent good with regards to those whose religion will never allow us any moral goodness and in a world so angry about the seeming injustice of the USA being a better place to live than most others.

What other reasons, except for feeling good or bettering relations or our ‘image’ as a country, could there be for wanting to stop this MILD ABUSIVE TREATMENT. Some may wail “Oh but we can’t abuse anyone , no matter the purpose or the type or degree !!”

It is easier to CLAIM the high moral ground when you know that we never hurt any prisoner in any way, physically or mentally, but unfortunately, that is an irresponsible demand to make. We need to judge treatment of prisoners by humane and realistic measures, not against some wish to be seen in some light by others.

Zero tolerance policies are the reaction of the irresponsible do-gooder, who wants the LAW to magically solve everything, instead of individuals and groups having to do the hard work of judging FAIRLY and coming to concensus. It seems we don’t want to take the time or pay the costs of judging each case on its own merit. Instead we give 15-year mandatory sentences to 17 year-olds for selling drugs, and parole rapists because we feel we might have judged them too harshly.

“The road to hell is paved with good intentions”. Not the original use of the phrase, but the best. What we think will make things easier often does… easier for the moment, but impossible in the future.
The methods mentioned above used against these prisoners seem appropriate and humane. Remember… these people are not as innocent as some seem to think. They made a decision to die for a cause, and possibly in a very lengthy and painful way. As ill-advised as they are about their rightousness in their actions,the benefit to them or their families, and even knowing that they were misled and used by others (many of them since early childhood), they have not become innocent and frail children easily damaged by the sort of ‘torture’ we inflict.
There is another issue that I have worried is more important and that is whether or not many of the people being held are in fact terrorists. While i am not against the treatment terrorists (by whatever name)have been given, I am sure our military and government are not immune to a ‘zero-tolerance’ attitude, and do not want to make the mistake of having freed terrorists. I do NOT trust in the ability or diligence of either our government or military to be diligent and fair in judging who should be categorized as a terrorist, and of those, who is likely to have valuable information, etc, etc.

Jeff says:

Whether or not one agrees with the methods used, one has to take into account that these were the techniques used on people of dubious guilt and connection with terrorist crimes. It’s one thing if these were employed against terrorists and quite another thing if they were employed against ordinary people, which they were.

I dunno, gives me pause.

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